Imagine this: you’re a US Marine trudging through Afghanistan. Suddenly there’s a flash of light and poof! Your entire unit has been transported back in time to the reign of Augustus. For some reason you are seized with the urge to conquer the Empire. Although the Doctor always said never to tamper with fixed points in time...
Believe it or not, this situation was the source of great debate a few years back. Somebody on Reddit asked if a single MEU would be able to subjugate the entire Empire, and it went viral in minutes.
An MEU is about 2200 troops, plus artillery and vehicles. They poof onto the banks of the Tiber, not too far from the capital of Rome, but are unable to restock on supplies from the modern world. Once they run out of bullets, they can’t get any more. Making their own would be impossible without the proper equipment. And then you’ve got to think about electricity, batteries and gasoline. While they would dominate for a couple of days, the Romans would gain the upper hand when supplies ran out.
The Empire, however, has the opposite situation. They’ve got plenty of resources, but their equipment is suddenly antique. Armor wouldn’t hold up against a bullet. In fact, it would distort the bullet’s shape and make the wound worse. The men never would have heard an explosion before, and gunfire would shred the horses.
We should also assess the differences in their fighting tactics. While both groups emphasize aggression, unit cohesion and flexibility, the Romans are accustomed to marching out side-by-side. If the Marines took advantage of this by engaging in guerrilla warfare, the Empire would suffer devastating losses. However, if the MEU didn’t move quick enough, they would be surrounded and forced to surrender.
Personally, I think the Romans would win. As much as I would like to see the American flag fluttering over the Coliseum, the Empire is too big to be overthrown in a day, and Marines are at a serious disadvantage as soon as their supplies run out. But you can disagree if you want. For once I welcome comment debates. Who do you think would win? Rome or the Marines?
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| After the Rome VS Marines debate went viral, there was talk of making a move based on it, entitled "Rome Sweet Rome." |
There's a chance the Romans could think the Marines are all gods, right? :P That would be a bit demoralizing, being forced to fight gods. :P
ReplyDeleteThere's a chance the Marines would win, if they struck hard and fast and could conquer Rome (at least the city). According to my knowledge of Roman times, at the height of the Empire (I believe) there were only a few Legions in Italy (seeing as they had many lands surrounding it as buffers, they wouldn't have to fear direct attack). In which case, 2200 marines could at the very least conquer the city of Rome.
Another factor to consider is that while the Empire would significantly outnumber the Marines, the Marines could move faster, and the full force of a Roman army would not be able to reach the Marines in time (despite the fact that Roman armies marched further in one day than should be humanly possible).
If and when the Marines did run out of their high tech weaponry, they *could* pick up Roman weapons/use their knives. But in melee combat the Romans would undoubtedly mass slaughter. Even if they did not have superior numbers they would still have better tactics as melee units and they are trained in melee combat exclusively. In one on one I think a US Marine with a knife could kill a Roman Legionnaire despite his large shield and gladius, but even that would be a very close call. A sword can cut straight through a Marine's armor, as it's only designed to stop bullets.
An MEU also has helicopters, which would wreak absolute chaos on Roman lines, despite their training. For some reason this again gives me the impression the Romans would believe they are gods/messengers of the gods or something. :P
MEU's are deployed amphibiously, I believe. Does that mean they get the ship too? If so then I would guess they'd have at least some extra supplies aboard (fuel, for example). Maybe. I don't know, it's a guess.
However, in a war Rome would dominate. It would simply be impossible for an MEU to defeat their sheer numbers - they'll run out of bullets and gas too quickly.
In a single battle, their would be only two ways for a Roman army to win. 1. The Romans ambush the Marines in a thick forest where they can't use their tanks or mortars. This is an effective approach because it closes the distance between the two sides almost instantly. Helicopters, tanks, and mortars can shoot into a melee mass. And as pointed out earlier, a Roman force of 2,000 alone would own a similarly sized Marine force in melee because of the variation in tactics.
However, the likelihood of being ambushed in a forest is small, seeing as the helicopters could have heat-sensing cameras, in which case the Roman army is exposed.
2. The Romans could actually try to defeat the Marines in a pitched battle. This one is, however unlikely, viable for one reason. ROMANS PWN IN MELEE! :P If, against all odds, a Roman army of 100,000 could walk through a hail or mortar shells, helicopter missiles, and lastly small arms fire, even with M1A1 battle tanks that could roll over a testudo unit, the Roman army could rout an MEU.
But that's not going to happen. :P Once three fourths of the army is being killed by noisy birds and firey projectiles (and ear-splitting sounds), even Legionnaires wouldn't have the will to keep charging.
As a side note, not all 2,200 would be in the actual battle. In other words, while engineers certainly could take up arms, their main job is to repair a damaged tank after the battle.
The Roman's best bet (or only bet) is to wage a guerrilla war, which would eventually wear the Marines down. Even if the Marines killed the Caesar, there would be dozens of generals ready to fight (and prospectively take the old Caesar's place), so the Empire's not going to crumble easily even without a government. Armies can sustain themselves for ages from raiding the countryside. Though new armor, swords, and artillery would not be sent to the generals, they could recruit from the villages.
(Blogspot wouldn't let me post my entire comment. I was 600 characters over the character limit or some excuse like that.)
ReplyDeleteAnother prospect would be total civil war! :D Without a Caesar who's to say the generals wouldn't attack each other, instead of the Marines, vying for control of the Empire? Maybe the Empire would split into various kingdoms, or the barbarians in eastern Europe would invade, and the natives of Britannia rise up again?
There's a lot of interesting factors that could come into play. XD Maybe the Marines would parley with anti-roman factions.
One more thing, without an aircraft carrier and no runways on land, the airplanes that an MEU has are virtually useless (though not the helicopters).
I loved writing this comment. XD
Hohoho my friend....I enjoyed reading you comment, and well done! Don't ask me why I sound like Santa Claus cause I don't know! But kindly read my below comment...boy, have 10-odd years of research served me well here.
Delete(part 2)
ReplyDeleteThe Romans, on the other hand, have no choice but to attack! The Marines have taken a city and sit threateningly at the very doorstep of Rome, the capitol! And with a steady supply of food and staggeringly superior range, now besieging and starving them out is not an option!
When the Romans come, the Marines will be entrenched and ready. Howitzers and mortars would shatter the ranks and kill tens of Romans at a time before they can even see their foes...the Roman morale, though strong (my heart is breaking) will collapse under the deadly explosions that come out of FRIGGIN NOWHERE. The helicopters will shred them from the sky while arrows whistle and plink around them. Then when the armies come in range, tank cannons and machineguns will tear into them. Marine Designated Marksman, dozens of them, will accurately pick off the enemy one by one, starting with the archers that pose the most of the overall meager threat. They'll have a staggering amount of ammunition, and their logistics trucks can supply them with ISO (semi truck) crates full of who-knows-what useful supplies from their "base".
Untold TENS of THOUSANDS of Romans would fall around this Marine City. And if they are still idiotically audacious enough to keep trying, when the city finally falls the Marines would already have their trucks and Humvees full of supplies, and they would pile in and drive off as far as their gas can take them. THEN REPEAT the WHOLE EPISODE. The Marines are smart...they would be conserving their supplies, and they already know the Romans inside and out. Historical hindsight is a 20-20 bird's-eye view after, all. I believe at this point that they would probably be able to take on the city of Rome itself next (if they didn't already the first time!). And finally, worst case scenario, when their gas and bullets are finally exhausted? Well, their vehicles are still pretty dang useful even without gas...they're mini fortresses! Some of them could even hold up against the Roman's best artillery! And at this point, days or even weeks later, the Marines have adapted to the game and the field. They'll pick up the Roman's weapons and fight guerrilla style, hitting strategic points, seizing supplies, and getting wiser of the Roman's fight every day. Rome's military has already been dealt a fatal blow, and they can't afford to turn their attention away from the borders enough to stamp out the Marines who have practically build their own mini empire right inside Rome.
*phewwwwwwwwww* Oh my aching fingers!!! Alright, any comments or questions, bring em on! I've thought this thing out so much now (I've been typing for almost an hour) so I'm ready!
By the way, when I said "idiotically audacious", I was referring to the Romans xP in reality, I really don't think they would keep fighting at this point...they would be wise to surrender. As Warrior said, they would see the Marines as gods after they just blew up a thousand men before they even came into sight.
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ReplyDelete(Ok I dunno why part 2 posted first...*shrug* oh well)
ReplyDeleteMWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! Sweet mother of Mary, this is gonna be crazy *rubs hands together* I'ma try to use layman's terms for y'all ;)
Okay, well, to start, the Marine Unit would have (among a friggin lot of other things) FOUR M1 battle tanks with a 120mm cannon, a .50 caliber and two .30 caliber machine guns, with a grand total of about 11000 bullets and 40-60 shells apiece. Each HEAT shell would tear through one or two soldiers before exploding and taking out a few more, and every single bullet fired could punch through a legionary shield and cuirass and still kill. Immediately exit a thousand or so Romans (this really hurts because I love Rome too...you're such a jerk xP) for every tank...BUT factor in the fact that, in formation, a M1 squad should get several hundred bonus kills, not even counting the ones they simply run over at speeds around 30 mph.
Air support would include up to 6 helicopter gunships that would eviscerate Roman troops (and also target potentially threatening artillery) with missiles and 20 mm. machineguns... for reference, those bullets are as long as your hand. And there's a whole...friggin...lot...of them spitting from the sky. Thousands. And every single one can turn a man and his horse into a carcass with a even a poor shot.
OVER 60 HUMVEES, each fast, tough, and armed with a .50 caliber Ma Deuce machinegun that'll put fist-sized holes right through Roman soldiers at a rate of over 700 rounds a minute. And each Humvee will hold a handful of troops, getting them around at speeds that would make the cavalry cry. Exit hundreds of Romans for every one of those Humvees.
The various other recon or utility vehicles could either be kept in reserve for supplies (they'd be stocked with enough ammo for the apocalypse) or sent out with troops and machineguns to send more soldiers to the grave.
And through all of this, not a single Marine would likely take a scratch.
Then the big guns...oh heck, those howitzers and mortars could turn a dozen Romans into macabre marshmallows from MILES away with every shot. But the Marines are smart cookies, and here's what they could do:
In the blink of a Roman eye, the Marines could weave through the enemy armies with some Humvees and a couple heavier trucks, and flatten a couple Roman fortresses before taking one over for themselves.
With the cover of air support, the MEU could split up and take several forts with in a day or two, and shore themselves up like the zombies are coming. And meanwhile, back at their "poof" spot they could set up a veritable fortress compound with their grounded ships, planes, and more of their heavier vehicles. With multiple water purifiers to go around and the world's finest survival training, they wouldn't do half bad off the land. See, instead of up-front offensives, the Marines would be wise to set up wide defensive perimeters and immediately set about living off the land. Their supplies coupled with their survival skills could last them a good long time...more than enough time to take and occupy an ENTIRE Roman city. (Even at this point, I still project that any Marine losses would be doubtful). Now the Marines have a city and surrounding farms that can be further shored up for defense and most importantly provide them with a steady supply of food.
I don't disagree that the Marines would kick butt. :P For a while anyway.
DeleteBut in the end the Romans do have the upper hand in two ways. One, numbers. I believe the Imperial Roman army had about half a million soldiers at its peak (according to Wikipedia, anyway). Two, they had endless supplies. Sure, the Marines could live off the countryside as you mentioned, but they can't resupply their bullets. And they certainly don't have enough for each and every Roman soldier. :P
I think that eventually tanks, helicopters and their couple dozen Humvees would prove useless as they would run out of gas. They would run out of bullets exceedingly fast as well.
I wouldn't argue that the Marines could take over a city and a bunch of forts, but the Empire as a whole would be relatively unscathed.
Once the Marines were out of bullets and gas, they're sitting ducks. Even if over half the Roman army was wiped out, that still leaves 200,000 men to clean up. :P
Btw, have you ever tried to hit a charging horse with a humvee? It's not pleasant for you or the vehicle. XD
Anyway, in a long term war I think I have to agree with Ly.
BUT, you do have a lot of good points. In fact, Rome just might be so discouraged by these "gods" that they surrender or flee to the outer parts of the Empire. I do not believe a single MEU could subjugate the entire Empire. XP
Another thing to consider is mental stability. While the Romans might think the Marines are gods and would certainly be shocked by the technology, the Marines would be looking at a hopeless battle against hundreds of thousands of enemies. Suicide much?
Wow. Lol. Everyone here has given this a ton of thought, and it's really been a blast to read your comments. However, being a staunch Roman Citizen (and because it's fun to debate something so ridiculous) I shall make a counterargument…
ReplyDeleteThe only flaw that I see in your plans is that the Marines wouldn't have any navigation equipment. Satellites won't be invented for several thousand years, the internet's gone, and any maps that they had on hand would be inaccurate. Italy has changed a whole lot since Augustus' time. Cities wouldn't be where they would expect. Rivers would have different courses. It would take them awhile to get anywhere, and give the Romans the opportunity to ambush them en route to the city.
Also, the MEU would be vulnerable when they first "poof" into existence on the banks of the Tiber. They wouldn't know where they were, and it would take a long time to realize that they had GONE BACK IN TIME TO ROME. :P The Romans, on the other hand, would spot the MEU fairly quickly. Boats were always going up and down the Tiber. Somebody would see them and report back to Augustus, who would send some guys to wipe out the mysterious army that had gathered at his doorstep. If the Romans were smart and quick (which, God bless them, they were) they'd attack before the Marines had gotten their bearings or decided what to do.
Pfft xP I'd definitely agree with your first point, and sort of agree with the second, but totally not the third :P
ReplyDeleteGood thing Marines still have their good old radios and binoculars. AND THEIR 120 MILLIMETER CANNONS